Hegel in Helmand

By Patrick Porter

Is democracy an antidote to terrorism? Today’s Observer is skeptical about our ability to make this happen, but approves of the logic:

“On a theoretical level, the moral and strategic goals are joined. A democratic Afghanistan would be less likely to incubate terrorism. If there were no Taliban, there would be no need for the occupation.”

And so, goes the argument, to disrupt the chain of terror that links the Afghan mountains with British streets, we must midwife free elections, non-corrupt institutions and human rights. Ballots are the enemy of Islamist bombers.

In the popular mind, that language was tainted by the war in Iraq, where the idea of liberating and democratising a nation that had just emerged from the nightmare of a psychopathic despot was damaged by subsequent anarchy, communal bloodletting, a refugee exodus, rampant criminality, and outrage over the lack of WMD, Saddamist links with AQ, torture, and incompetence in high places.

Nevertheless, this idea persists. Its advocates, at least in the UK, recast it in a more anodyne developmental language: ‘delivering sustainable governance’, ‘instituting nonviolent political processes’, and bringing order into ungoverned spaces – you’ve heard the vocabulary. At its core, there is still a working assumption that combating Al Qaeda is bound up with a profound liberal project of transforming failed states. One can’t help but suspect that the use of the watered-down language of foreign development appeals because it puts the same idea in less inflammatory language.

(If I were a bereaved parent of one of the British soldiers killed in the past few days, I wonder whether I would be satisfied with the consolation that my son was killed to ‘deliver governance’ and ‘build capacity’? Either we use the words ‘liberate’ and ‘liberalise’ plainly, or we ask ourselves why we euphemise it with the bloodless talk of technocratic jargon.)

The military men I’ve met who do believe in what they are doing put it more eloquently: they are fighting to offer the Afghans a better and freer life and lift Afghanistan out of being an impoverished hothouse for AQ. Right or wrong, at least that describes it directly.

But must we democratise to defend ourselves? Putting aside the vast issue of expense and difficulty, is the actual assumption correct?

Thanks to its own overreaching brutality, the crackdown by the state, and some quite sophisticated as well as quite unpleasant methods used against it, Al Qaeda is now an endangered species in the society of…Saudi Arabia. Not exactly a nirvana of pluralist, liberal, open politics, of women’s emancipation or a healthy Enlightenment spirit of intellectual freedom. But militant jihad is no less unwelcome in Saudi Arabia for that. Even people living under tyranny dislike being blown up, and tyrants don’t necessarily welcome the presence of terrorists in their midst.

As for ‘incubation’, what of free-market, open, democratic societies like Britain in the 1990’s? Being a free country did not prevent the growth of backyard terrorist cells in the First World.

On the other side of the coin, Lebanon has a good measure of democracy in its politics. Imperfect, sure, and often poisoned by outside interference. But democratic certainly. One party involved in Lebanon’s democracy is Hezbollah, an armed movement, a welfare provider, and a participant in national elections. This doesn’t stop them using classic terrorist methods when it suits them – kidnappings, attacks on civilian populations for political purposes, suicide bombings. Being democratic is not the enemy of being terroristic – in fact the former can be invoked as a mandate to justify the latter. Hezbollah can claim a powerful mandate from the masses, to use a Monty Pythonism, as it justifies its grisly methods.

There are profoundly undemocratic forces in the world who share our distaste for AQ’s global jihad, including Islamists themselves, many of whom wish to keep their jihad local and not pick a fight with the American superpower and its allies. And there are terrorists who win elections.

The broad hypothesis that liberalisation and democratisation is the path to counter-terrorism seems more based on unproven assumptions about world-historical patterns of economic and political teleology – a kind of Hegelian and Atlanticist vision of progress and modernisation – than about the links between security and liberty.

This has very direct policy implications. The commitment to democracy and anti-corruption, and a strong central state, will tie us down vastly more with our resources, money and manpower, than a more minimal commitment to backing local powers whose interests coincide with ours.

In the case of the Taliban, while their ultimate position on elections is not clear, they do pose as a credible counterstate, offering services and ‘governance’ to the masses. They are fighters but they are also judges, law-and-order providers and economic regulators. And they can also pose as the protectors of a threatened agrarian class, growing the only highly profitable crop. They can claim some kind of legitimacy rooted in popular will. An Afghanistan animated by popular political passions will not necessarily be one hostile to illiberal and jihadist forces, in other words.

I’ve been a little critical of evasive language here. So its only fair that I state my own unheroic position clearly: Al Qaeda is a non-trivial and malign force but ultimately one that is self-defeating. Our objective in Afghanistan should not be to purge it via the medicine of democratic governance, which is too hard, too expensive, too dangerous and too unnecessary. (that is not to deny that Afghans may well decide to develop their own democracy with or without our assistance. It is to question whether we should be engaged in a large-scale military campaign to do so on our own timetable.)

Instead, our goal should be to leave Afghanistan as a place where AQ cannot operate safely or unmolested. They may seek to set up shop again there, but they will be hunted, harassed and permanently trying to stay alive. To do this, we need to craft a coalition of all those, no matter how unpleasant, who share this minimal aim. It means cutting deals with bastards, keeping a lighter presence, and doing rough work in the shadows, and feeding money and material support to those willing to help out. Not a perfect or humane alternative, and one where innocents will be killed, but a more realistic and affordable one.

Illiberal? Absolutely. But thirty years of endless war sounds like an even worse illiberal state.

34 Responses to “Hegel in Helmand”

  1. Pericles Says:

    Hegel gets a hard time because Fukuyama bastardized him. The real culprit in my view for our interventionist attempt at re-modelling foreign societies is Kant, and his notion of perpetual peace. Hegel was explicit that the dialectic DOESN’T end: ‘Self-subsistence pushed to the point of the one as a being-for-itself is abstract, formal, and destroys itself. It takes the supreme, most stubborn error, which takes itself for the highest truth, manifesting in more concrete forms as abstract freedom, pure ego, and further, as Evil.’ (The Science of Logic). Thus the thought that we can dictate to other societies our ‘higher wisdom’ would have been quite foreign to him, since he saw the dialectic as a natural, organic process. Or to quote Engels, Hegel’s Marxist admirer: ‘A system of natural and historical knowledge, embracing everything and final for all time, is a contradiction to the fundamental law of dialectic reasoning’ (Anti-Duhring, p.39). So Hegel is not to blame, but the bastardized popularized version of Hegel that emerged after 1991 to try and beat Marxists over the heads with. Thus not uncoincidentally many in both New Labour and American Neo-Cons were ex-Trotskyists, those with traditionally the weakest grasp of what Marx and Hegel actually wrote.
    Sorry for the diversion. Personal hobbyhorse.

  2. patporter Says:

    Hey Pericles,

    yes I wasn’t trying to frame up Hegel personally, and should have been clearer on the point. But a bastardised Hegelianism does seem at work here, in the dialectic of ‘democratic liberalisation’ as the ultimate synthesis to eliminate Islamist terrorism.

  3. Pericles Says:

    Pat,
    Completely agree. Also interesting how the additional effort now being made in Helmand is sold as essential to frame democratic elections in August-elections in which, in reality, there is only one real plausible candidate (Karzai). We’ve started measuring democracy by process (is there HYPOTHETICAL freedom of speech? Is there the APPEARANCE of opposition parties and political pluralism?) rather than the actual reality of what the interaction of our own presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the economic assymetries involved, and local cultures themselves are actually creating. In short, pursuing a Kantian dream, we’re actually creating unstable dystopias of negative rather than positive liberty (to use Isaiah Berlin’s useful distinction)-you can have choice, vote for any candidate you like, have HYPOTHETICAL complete freedom of thought and action. Just don’t expect anything (corrupt courts, random airstrikes, getting accidentally murdered by a trigger-happy private security company, bribery, pressure from the local warlord) to really change. This is of course better than living under Sadaam or the Taliban, but not enough in my view to achieve real consent between governors and governed.

  4. ZI Says:

    “Instead, our goal should be to leave Afghanistan as a place where AQ cannot operate safely or unmolested.”

    And who will do the fighting? The whole point of this wa

  5. ZI Says:

    arf..WTF

    “Instead, our goal should be to leave Afghanistan as a place where AQ cannot operate safely or unmolested.”

    And who will do the fighting? A bunch of warlords who are only in it for the money are absolutely incapable of resisting an ideologically committed group with a strong central leadership like the Taliban. That’s the recurring theme in Afghanistan and Somalia

    The whole point of this war is to build an army and an administration capable of fighting the Taliban, army+administration=state.

    That’s the main problem, I am afraid. If you want to keep AQ out of southern Afghanistan, then you need someone to deny them access to it. The Northern Alliance wasn’t very successful and I doubt another coalition would be more effective.

  6. patporter Says:

    Hi ZI,

    thanks for this. Here’s my thoughts:

    army, administration = state. I know the theory. Problem is, it is too damned hard, and may not ’cause’ the security you want it to.

    Decades, the financing of a modern army hundreds of thousands of men strong, in a country with hardly any economy, a weak client state in a country where power is localised and the state’s writ is limited.

    Who is going to make this possible and finance it, especially in a global economic meltdown? That is the most unrealistic of all policy options! And that’s the first point: your paradigm is literally impossible and unaffordable.

    My goal wouldn’t be even to keep the Taliban from all power. Its about coercing and containing the forces of international jihadism and terrorism, not ending Islamist politics in Afghanistan, which is not within our capacity in the medium-term. The Taliban are not all necessarily supporters of global jihad. They are not inherently committed to worldwide terrorism. In fact there are significant tensions within the Taliban on this point. As a matter of power realities, we must tolerate a degree of localised Islamist politics, as we do in other nations. It is preventing the country turning back into a staging post for attacks on us that is our most pressing interest.

    Who said anything about keeping AQ out of the country? I just want life to be very dangerous and difficult for them there. You might have noticed that Al Qaeda tends to make fresh local enemies wherever it turns up these days. And now that they have our attention, we can help those local players a great deal, as we did in Iraq. Its the exhausting, unrealistic policy of long-term occupation that we can and should avoid.

    And with respect, the failure of pre-9/11 policy in no way is proof that alternatives cannot work. Occasional cruise missiles and punitive strikes did not sufficiently disrupt AQ in Afghanistan, as you note.

    But a more sustained policy of hunting AQ there, with carrots and sticks for those who support and oppose them, and our military forces within swatting distance, would probably be a better alternative. And yes, if Taliban powerbrokers do again indulge AQ and the like, we can use our military force to support the corrupt warlords in disrupting and punishing them.

    You might notice that the last time we militarily assisted warlords in driving out the Taliban from government, with cash, airpower and special forces, it happened with breathtaking pace. Not so incapable of resisting, then?

    And I’m glad you raised Somalia: like Yemen and Pakistan, we don’t insist on occupying and transforming that country in order to root out terrorism.

  7. Jeff M. Says:

    Pat, Completely concur with you. All this utter nonsense about democracy as a cure for terrorism. It is just another sound bite with far less credibility than the notion of the democratic peace. If we just keep endlessly mentioning how great democracy is, we’re likely to remain trapped in the same mental framework which guided the Bush administration. Meanwhile we cannot possibly mention the Palestinian elections of 2006 which brought Hamas to power. I would love to see their supporting evidence for these silly claims, but quite evidently they have none, and will always change the subject if challenged on this point. Still, as the old saying goes, repeat the lie enough times and it will eventually become true. As you correctly observe, the language we use may shift from time to time, though admittedly our leaders would be hard pressed to say they are supporting an extremely corrupt leader who doesn’t actually have very much real authority at all in his own country. Yet the underlying logic is used to maintain flagging support for the war and is very hard to escape from. These days though the politicians seem to be relying less on the ‘positive’ democracy statements (or sustainable development) and more on the ‘negative’ scare tactics of Al Qaeda under our beds.

  8. Kenneth Payne Says:

    Okay – let me try the case for the defence….

    First, Obama has already said he’s not after Jeffersonian democracy – and a good job too. Nonetheless, societal change is possible in Afghanistan, it’s happened before the world over (including the Muslim world and my favourite imagined community of Indonesia). The desired result won’t look like the US in the late 18th century, but a blend of what’s there already and new identities, loyalties and attitudes.

    In relatively short periods of time, pre-modern societies have encountered and then become tolerably reconciled to modernity. These changes have been both directed by elites (internal and foreign) and bottom-up. It’s insulting to imagine that Afghanistan can’t make some sort of progress in that direction: it was going that way in the 70s, after all.

    How far we can direct that process is debatable – I’m not a neo-con, and I don’t see an inevitable historical teleology. Nor do I think we’ve got the patience or temperament of a colonial power. But anyway, we’re there, and aside from familiarising the savvy locals with the vacuous language of development organisations, we’re likely to have some impact on the identities and life choices of individual Afghans.

    Then there’s the AQ question. Patrick likes George Kennan as much as I do, and his scheme for managing the problem looks like a muscular version of Kennan’s containment. But propagating ideas was important in the CW too. The USSR was indeed contained, until western ideas won out. Not a bad model for dealing with Islamism, perhaps – who knows? I think it’s effectively what we’re doing anyway – containing the problem, while pushing our ideas forward, and co-opting local allies to help out.

    AQ is, in many ways, a second order threat – but then our response has also been of the second order. The British deaths and casualties there are deeply painful for the relatives and friends of those involved, but they are not yet crippling for Britain and its institutions. This isn’t placing the same stress on the UK as Algeria did on the French republic, for example.

    In short – I think our approach is, if not minimalist, proportionate. Patrick, I gather, would like more minimalism. Like AQ, the Soviets might also be ultimately self-defeating. But a little bit of help didn’t go amiss then, and might not now.

  9. The Faceless Bureaucrat Says:

    The argument that liberal approaches to conflict resolution are ill-suited to the task is well articulated (and has been for more than a decade) by Roland Paris. For perhaps the clearest example of this, see his “Peacebuilding and the Limits of Liberal Internationalism,” International Security 22:2 (Fall 1997), pp. 54-89. Here is an excerpt:

    “My argument is straightforward. A single paradigm–liberal internationalism–appears to guide the work of most international agencies engaged in peacebuilding. The central tenet of this paradigm is the assumption that the surest foundation for peace, both within and between states, is market democracy, that is, a liberal democratic polity and a market-oriented economy. Peacebuilding is in effect an enormous experiment in social engineering–an experiment that involves transplanting Western models of social, political, and economic organization into war-shattered states in order to control civil conflict: in other words, pacification through political and economic liberalisation.”

    “This paradigm, however, has not been a particularly effective model for establishing stable peace. Paradoxically, the very process of political and economic liberalisation has generated destabilising side effects in war-shattered states, hindering the consolidation of peace and in some cases even sparking renewed fighting.”

    And so on and so forth. The point is that, right from the start, the strategy is miguided and badly founded. No matter how well it is executed (and, of course, that varies greatly) it is not going to work.

    The rub? What does work? Now that is a question…

  10. patporter Says:

    Kenny,

    my version is a containment strategy, which is premised on the idea that we use limited efforts to keep a lid on the problem while it destroys itself (AQ, that is).

    The alternative, of transforming and liberalising a host society so that it becomes an anti-terrorist democracy is not containment on any reasonable premise. Its ‘rollback’, the idea that Kennan was battling in the Cold War, of aggressively supplanting the hostile idea with one’s own military forces.

    You will find me make the case for Kennanism itself in an article I banged out a few months ago.

    And on the Afghan modernity point: as I said, Afghanistan may well evolve into something resembling what you say. its our capacity to engineer it on our timetable in a way that undermines terrorism and doesn’t exhaust our resources which is the issue. I’m all in favour of giving our self-defeating enemy a nudge towards the rotating knives. But not in a way that brings exorbitant costs and creates other problems for us.

    Second: the Taliban and AQ are in many ways part of modernity, not the antithesis of it. Their technology, their global reach, AQ’s concept of striking the far enemy. A parliament, highways and mass literacy will not eradicate this problem. the hijackers on 9/11 were white collar tertiary educated technocrats, or at least some of them were. So I need some proof that there is any linkage between democratising/modernising and keeping a lid on AQ.

  11. Kenneth Payne Says:

    Our disagreement is on social engineering. We both think it’s hard, I don’t think it exhausts our resources, and to a considerable degree, I think it’ll probably happen anyway. Not inevitable, mind you: the worst indictment of our efforts so far is the ANA battalion that took to the field in support of the Marines in Helmand. There ought to be a division there by now – 8 years in.

    On AQ as modern phenomenon, I bow to no man in my admiration for Paul Berman and Olivier Roy. It’s the totalitarian modernism in Qutb and Mawdudi that limits their appeal.

  12. patporter Says:

    yes, we disagree on social engineering. not only on whether its hard, but also whether its necessary.

    on the difficulty: what we are talking about in Afghanistan, in some ways even more complex than Iraq, if we are serious about the nationbuilding goals, is potentially a decade(s) long commitment in pursuit of hugely ambitious goals at a time when UK and US resources are being placed under highly unfunny pressures. this may not be exhaustion, but its too much for not enough chance of success…

    on the necessity:…which is made worse by the second problem, which is that it is unnecessary and indeed irrelevant in containing AQ. For the reasons we’ve discussed. it is a movement with plenty of bright strategic minds but which multiplies its enemies, cannot control its membership enough to make its violence politically effective, and has brought on its own blowback in the heart of the lands it wants to turn into a Caliphate. So I don’t think we need to turn Afghanistan, or help turn it, into Indonesia, Turkey, Switzlerland, or Pakistan to atack the problem.

  13. Kenneth Payne Says:

    And – while I’m at it – in reply to FB’s above – here’s some Clifford Geertz, to which I wholeheartedly subscribe:

    ‘The development of a liberalism with both the courage and the capacity to engage itself with a differenced world, one in which its principles are neither well understood nor widely held, in which indeed it is, in most places, a minority creed, alien and suspect, is not only possible, it is necessary.’

    That’s from his 1995 lecture, The World in Pieces, printed in Available Light: which is currently my favourite bedtime reading…

  14. patporter Says:

    nice quote.

    by ‘engagement’ did Geertz mean inserting 5000 troops?

    presumably if he’s right on the political/ethical point, we also have some responsibility to engage with the struggles of Tibetan separatists and Zimbabwean dissidents too, and all sorts of folk with struggles good liberals should uphold.

    But that doesn’t necessarily mean its prudent to pursue this with promiscuous and regular military expeditions. nor would it necessarily create liberal conditions for the oppressed.

    and to do so would quickly make us spent and overstretched. that’s not courage, its irrelevance. And self-respecting powers cannot afford to be even suspected of this. I still lean towards keeping our powder, or some of our powder, dry.

  15. Tom Wein Says:

    Pat, I don’t think anybody here is suggesting that the ethical case is a sufficient reason for intervention – we all know that it’s not practical to intervene in Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and Tibet all at the same time. But that’s not an argument for not intervening in one of them.

    Once again, the difference is of degree, not type – KP agrees that we need to keep some of our powder dry. He just thinks we already are keeping a sufficient amount of it dry.

    (For the record, I’m with Pat. I don’t think the either the rewards or the likelihood of success are worth the costs).

  16. Kenneth Payne Says:

    Geertz, sensible chap that he was, always favoured corps strength deployments as a minimum.

  17. patporter Says:

    Hey Tom and Ken,

    but where was Geertz on helicopters?

    tom, point taken. I was just cautioning against Geertz’s rather unmeasured or vague view that we must engage, suggesting that we need to be more rigorous about when and how. absolutely you are right that this doesn’t mean we should never intervene.

  18. ZI Says:

    “And I’m glad you raised Somalia: like Yemen and Pakistan, we don’t insist on occupying and transforming that country in order to root out terrorism.”

    “Our” (as in western) policy in Somalia has been a complete failure. The US, by supporting Ethiopia’s invasion, has defeated an Islamist faction (TFG) only to see it emerge again even more dangerous and even more radicalized( Shabab). And we still support a dysfunctional government who never controlled effectively the country. Somalia is certainly not a model.

    And I agree with Kenneth Payne, NATO’s effort in Afghanistan is modest. Most of the US resources are still in Iraq and the Europeans are still fighting with a peace-time budget. The simple reality is that the Afghan War is cheap.
    And again, Kenneth Payne says it: There’s a lot of room for progress. There has been a lot of talk about “winning heart and minds” in Afghanistan but since 2001 there has been a change of strategy every year or worse. Before saying counter-insurgency is impossible in Afghanistan, maybe we should actually try?

    This has nothing to do with democracy. Obviously it’s impossible to support the establishment of a authoritarian dictatorship, it would be impossible to sell a narrative for this on the home front. But between western style democracy and dictatorship, there’s plenty of room.

  19. SNLII Says:

    “The rub? What does work? Now that is a question”

    According to Paris, if my recollection is correct, the fix was a gradualist program that begins with more authoritarian — but local — leaders.

    I should suggest that this is quite different from what President Obama has proposed: “This push must be joined by a dramatic increase in our civilian effort. Afghanistan has an elected government, but it is undermined by corruption and has difficulty delivering basic services to its people. The economy is undercut by a booming narcotics trade that encourages criminality and funds the insurgency. The people of Afghanistan seek the promise of a better future. Yet once again, have seen the hope of a new day darkened by violence and uncertainty.”

    A more prudent policy prescription might be found in the less-sanguine, doubtful pentameter of Portia: “If to do were as easy as to know what were good to do, chapels had been churches, and poor men’s cottages princes’ palaces.”

  20. Tactical Neo-Conservatism? « Kings of War Says:

    [...] Kings of War « Hegel in Helmand [...]

  21. patporter Says:

    Hey ZI,

    enjoying this discussion, by the way!

    I guess we aren’t going to agree on the overall strategic ‘value judgement’ on whether its working and whether its worth it.

    But can I make one suggestion: this war, justified on the balance sheet or not, is far from ‘cheap.’ You and Ken make the point that it is only a modest fraction of our resources. But in terms of national wealth, I would suggest that projected forward a decade, this could be an extremely expensive undertaking.

    At least in terms of figures coming out of the US, Stephen Biddle’s recent excellent defence of the war in Afghanistan concedes that “The financial costs are also likely to be high. The Congressional Research Service estimates that the war in Afghanistan cost $34 billion in FY 2008 and projects that this figure will increase in coming years.” According to Stigliz writing last year factoring in all sorts of other factors, the total operating costs of Afghanistan are projected at $16 billion a month.

    Is this cheap over at least a decade, if we are pursuing the goals you believe we should pursue?

    I’m not sure what makes up all of these calculations. But the total cost must include managing a long-term military presence in Afghanistan, funding the creation of a national army, and, amongst other things, caring for increasing numbers of maimed veterans (often for the rest of their lives), all of this must be part of the mix. And this at a time when the national wealth of the UK and NATO countries is being placed under severe pressure.

    These costs would of course multiply in even more unsustainable ways, if the US and its allies followed the course you seem to espouse, of occupying and transforming other nations which have hosted AQ and its affiliates, such as Yemen or Somalia, in order to remove any safe havens.

    So: necessary? we can agree to disagree. Effective? ditto. Cheap? I really beg to differ.

  22. The Faceless Bureaucrat Says:

    If I can jump in here, I think dollars and sense aside, where there might be some feeling of cheapness is in the lack of ‘totalisation’ or societal mobilisation. For many countries in the West, the ‘cost’ of previous wars was extraordinarily high on the home front, whether it be measured in terms of rationing, loss of loved ones, etc. Furthermore, the political costs for countries (victors and vanquished) would also have been higher in previous wars (the end of empire for Britain, for example).

    Perhaps it is, as Kenny Rogers so sagely opined, too early to tally the costs. ‘They’re be time enough for countin’, when the dealin’s done.’

    In order to do any kind of ‘cost-benefit’ calculation, we need to know the potential upside. What are the benefits of being in Afghanistan? Because if we don’t know that, then there is no way to tell if the cost of being there is ‘worth it’ or not. It seems to me this is where the real problem is.

    Is 34 billion a month worth it to save Western Civilisation? Sure, I like Pot Noodle and Coldplay as much as the next guy. But is that we are really doing? I have not yet been convinced by the politicians that they know. Hauling out the old saw horse, ‘We are fighting them in Helmand so we don’t have to fight them in Hull’ just don’t do it for me.

  23. Kenneth Payne Says:

    FB – surely Coldplay is one reason to be backing the Taliban in this fight?

    Great thoughts though – i wrote something similar in my response to Thomas’ post above – how can you gauge risk is you don’t know the probabilities or the payoffs? And, as Coker argues, there are risks to tackling risks.

  24. ZI Says:

    Well, obviously cheap in relative terms. But I won’t discuss this in detail. But really 16×12= 192 billions a year, that’s not much compared to NATO’s collective wealth. But I accept one argument based on “cost” against our presence in Afghanistan, we’re forced to commit forces that won’t be available elsewhere, we’re force to make budget choices that may compromise our ability to deal with future threats (the whole “next-war-itis” debate). That’s a strong argument and there’s no easy answer.

    I agree that cheaper options should be discussed, I simply believe that a close study will reveal that they pose significant problems. I never supported the idea that invading Somalia and other potential safe havens was a practical solution. But we’ve put our fingers in a very complicated machine and now we have to put them out without destroying it. There’s so many unknowns that it’s paralyzing: What is happening in Pakistan?In central Asia?In the Islamic world? In what condition is the Al-Qaida network( bad? but how bad?) What’s the connection between all these things and Afghanistan? Are we making things worse? Or is it going to get worse if we leave?

    McNamara must be laughing at us.

  25. patporter Says:

    Hey Faceless B,

    yes, it must always be relative in the endless dialectic of costs, gains, value, risk, reward, etc.

    Although the costs can be so great that they are literally impossible to meet. It then becomes a case not so much of whether to pay the bill, but not being able to pay it.

  26. patporter Says:

    btw, ZI I take your point, that the issue of expense and cost is not so much the absolute one of treasure sacrificed, but the tradeoffs involved, ie. the opportunities that this sacrifice costs. Is Afghanistan worth a few aircraft carriers, as one officer put it to me!

  27. SNLII Says:

    This makes the assumption, PP, that the sole means of addressing the CT threat in AfPak is to begin a generational population-centric COIN campaign alongside a radical experiment in nation building so that, best case scenario, in 20 years or so we behold the Burkino Faso of SW Asia.

    The scenario you portrayed in your copy suggests that we might consider less expensive alternatives, ones that wouldn’t affect London’s desire to build a few aircraft carriers, apparently to tether to the wharf at Hull in case al Qaeda floats by.

    A CT containment and DA strategy — perhaps a very robust sort of Operation Desert Fox — would prove far less expensive and could be conducted with a much smaller footprint in NW Afghanistan or any of the nearby ‘Stans, albeit we would concede to the Taliban’s Pathan insurgency a portion of the “state.”

    Well, one must make compromises if one wants aircraft carriers, and I would submit that in the long run London will be better served by a few flat tops than a few decades policing surly goat herders who would prefer to herd poppies eventually into the veins of Hull’s junkies.

    By spatchcocking Roland Paris, Faceless Bureaucrat reminds us that the nation building efforts themselves might run counter to our overall attempts to create reconciliation, a nascent democracy and a non-narcotic free market in Afghanistan. He also might have suggested that the very occupaton of Afghanistan is what’s driving a great deal of the anti-western violence in Pakistan.

    The discussion has devolved to opportunity costs involving the continuing COIN campaign in AfPak. But another principle from economics might be introduced, too: The Sunk Cost Fallacy.

    Perhaps what’s truly motivating our folly of turning the Hindu Kush into a liberal democracy’s answer to Cloud Cuckoo Land is the assumption that, well, we’ve already spent hundreds of billions of dollars in Afghanistan, and, gee, if we leave all that will go to waste and, perhaps, we might still influence events if we keep paying the ticket to remain hanging by the strap of the subway hurtling into the abyss, yada yada yada.

    Because is this not the sense one gets when one listens to much of the testimony in US Congressional hearings, especially from Kilcullen, et al?

  28. The Faceless Bureaucrat Says:

    SNLII (btw, your first 10 seasons were the best. After Belushi died, the whole thing went in the gurgler)…

    The Sunk Cost Falacy is well known to economists, but rarely ever practiced by anyone, whether they be Las Vegas gamblers or other odds-takers, like politicians. Afghanistan is, politically speaking, and mixing metaphors from other recent bleatings, ‘Too big to fail’. How much life support does it need? What does the ‘leaner, meaner post-bankruptcy GM’ Afghanistan look like? Is there going to be another Goldman Sachs/Petreas miracle?

    We are not even asking these questions in the mainstream yet, because we are still parroting variations of ’stay the course’ and reaching back to other chestnuts.

  29. The Faceless Bureaucrat Says:

    Hey PP, was the officer salivating over aircraft carriers from the RN, I wonder?

  30. vimothy Says:

    If you calculate cost as a percentage of GDP rather than as a raw number, I think it starts to look a bit more acceptable…

  31. SNLII Says:

    Well, Vimothy, that’s always been the prescription written by Heritage Foundation: lock it at 4 percent of GDP and look away.

    FB, “SNLII” actually is an acronym for Soldier No Longer in Iraq. I got tired of typing out the damned thing.

    I bear an unfortunately male resemblance to Tina Fey (perhaps it’s the spectacles), but otherwise I have no tangible connection to the TV show.

  32. vimothy Says:

    I’m not arguing that it is more acceptable, merely that there are different ways to compute costs. ZI referred to the fact that while $192 billion a year is a lot of money for yer average Joe, it’s looks much smaller relative to combined NATO GDP (UK GDP alone > $2tn). But of course, that’s not necessarily a good reason to be there, doing what we’re doing. (And good luck getting 4% of GDP out of our (UK) government BTW)!

  33. Tom Wein Says:

    I would quite like to see the cast of SNL sent to Iraq. They could play hilarious practical jokes on jihadists. The whole place could do with some cheering up.

  34. patporter Says:

    Vimothy – good point. For me $192 billion a year, over a decade or so, esp as its probably not evenly distributed but heavily borne by a few countries, is still excessive money if we realise that a) its unnecessary, and b) in some ways producing other problems for us, and c) given the other things you could do with it.

    Also, it represents not billions taken just out of a GDP, but out of state revenue, which is a bit more finely balanced these days…

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